Les Jones

The debate inside the U.S. is mostly a debate between those who believe in America as a force of good in the world and those whose see the U.S. as the main threat to the world.
You know I'm a drama queen and all, so don't take this the wrong way...but fuck you. Seriously. Not only is that statement just bullshit wrong, it's spit-in-your-face insulting to a lot of people you consider your friends.

Maybe it's more accurate to say that's the debate at the extremes, but that is the debate. There's very much a blame-America-first crowd whose first reflex is to distrust and criticize anything America does for their own moral and intellectual vanity.

And I don't take it the wrong way. That's just you. You're a really nice guy but for some reason you sometimes turn into an asshole in blog comments, and not just on my blog.

Steve, if you're still reading, go to the next thread (the one about Vonnegut) to see examples of what Goldstein was talking about, and what I was talking about, in the story and in the comments. Or see anything that Persimmon posts in comments here.

You're a really nice guy but for some reason you sometimes turn into an asshole in blog comments, and not just on my blog.

I'm not an asshole, I'm lovably irrascible. I'm so misunderstood ;_;

Maybe it's more accurate to say that's the debate at the extremes, but that is the debate.

Um...you know, the debate at the extremes is, like, BY DEFINITION, not the debate that most people are having. But I'm goint to go along with your rules. What this really is all about is a debate between people on one side who think this war has been horribly managed and makes the world less, not more, safe; versus fanatics on the other side who see this as part of a larger mission to exterminate Islam worldwide.

What's kind of ironic, though, given the amount of venom I spew your way on this subject, is that I'm more or less in agreement with you that allowing Saddam to remain in power would not have been a viable strategy for much longer, and that some sort of military action to depose him was justifiable.

Where we part ways is that I think Dubya/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Cheney etc fucked up the planning and exection of the war and its aftermath in an almost criminally incompetent fashion, and I'm revolted and am furious almost to the point of complete incoherence at the way the war has been used to attack their poliical opponents and set the American people at each other's throats. You're a smart guy, and I have a hell of a lot of respect for your thoughts on most subjects, but your slavish devotion to these bastards utterly confounds me.

You are lovably irrascible. No doubt about it.

"fanatics on the other side who see this as part of a larger mission to exterminate Islam worldwide"

Do you mean Islamic fascist/Wahaabists there, right? Tell me you don't think that the pro-war side - even the extreme pro-war side - is trying to exterminate an entire religion.

Things haven't always gone smoothly in Iraq. I think liberating and rebuilding an entire mostly-dysfunctional country while the ousted ruling minority tries to blow it up is a hell of a lot harder than most people give credit for. I generally think the war is going far better than the public perception says, and I'm collecting thoughts on that for next week.

Islamic fascist

THEY'RE NOT FUCKING FASCISTS!!! ARRRGH!!!!! CALLING THEM FASCISTS RENDERS THE WHOLE FUCKING TERM 'FASCIST' COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS!!!! I SWEAR TO GOD I'M GOING TO RIP THE THROAT OUT OF THE NEXT PERSON I SEE WHO USES THE WORD 'ISLAMOFASCIST'!! ARGGH!!! LKJJSLDJFSDJFSOLKJSDFDLSADKLDFJLKSJ!!!!

Tell me you don't think that the pro-war side is trying to exterminate an entire religion.

Um, duh. Did you actually read my post?

Tell me you don't think the extreme pro-war side is trying to exterminate an entire religion.

Do you NEVER listen to talk radio or read hard wingnut blogs? This is totally mainstream in the world of Freepers and their ilk.

OK, they're not fascists. They just want to spread an Islamic Caliphate with Sharia all over the world.

"Do you NEVER listen to talk radio or read hard wingnut blogs? This is totally mainstream in the world of Freepers and their ilk."

Link, please.

They just want to spread an Islamic Caliphate with Sharia all over the world.

While that's true, it's also not fascism.

Link, please.

No. Sorry if I'm being lazy, but I don't have enough interest in winning this argument to attempt to "prove" it to you. But I see and hear all the time people in place like the comment section of LGF going through the Koran, picking out little bits here and there that show how Islam is violently and incorrigibly intolerant at its very core, and concluding that as long as it remains extant, we are doomed to perpetual struggle with terrorism.

The most recent example, though, that I heard was a couple weeks ago some guy who was "saved" from Islam called into the Tammy Bruce show and made this very point, citing chapter and verse. Tammy didn't really challenge him much, but to her credit, she at least sort of patted him on the head in a very patronising way. So half a point to Tammy, I suppose.

If you run across any examples send them my way.

I don't read LGF unless someone links to it. Part of it is that the few times I've gone into comments it had a bad vibe, and in general places where a post gets 500 comments tends to be a little too groupthinky for me.

If there is any debate going on, you are trying to avoid it by pretending those with different perspectives can be conveniently reduced to "those whose see the U.S. as the main threat to the world". It is quite possible to believe the U.S. is a force of good in the world without having to believe we never make mistakes.

My willingness to entertain the possibility that we crossed ethical lines in the assault on Fallujah does not mean I hate America and everything it does. In fact, I think the best way to assure the U.S. is a force of good is to acknowledge our mistakes and learn from them.

The U.S. is certainly a major force in the world. Whether we use our power for good depends mainly on our willingness to be honest about what we do and to make choices democratically. That means listening to the spectrum of options and perspectives with an open mind. It certainly does not mean trusting the judgment of men who prefer to suppress and dismiss disagreements and to operate in secrecy.

What I think of my country and its role in the world is a very different thing than what I think of men like Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and Paul Wolfowitz.